IRC log from 2008-01-15
[20:13] nobby: ann? [20:13] ragaller: Hi, Ann+dreas [20:13] ja2: sorry jann, but jann is alread taken as nickname [20:13] ragaller: ;-)) [20:13] nobby: ah [20:13] nobby: [20:13] ragaller: nice one, Jann! [20:14] ja2: yeah [20:15] ja2 heißt jetzt jann2. [20:16] jann2: better? [20:16] ragaller: I prefer ja2 [20:17] nobby: I have to prepare my dinner [20:17] nobby: will be afk from time to time [20:17] ragaller: OK - good cooking then and check out: http://www.apple.com/macbookair/ [20:18] nobby: [20:18] nobby: 3000 $ with SSD ... [20:18] nobby: and I have to admit I don't really like the design [20:18] nobby: not yet, at least [20:18] nobby: but - they pushed the limits again [20:19] ragaller: yeah - the design is a bit roundish - but nice, I think [20:19] nobby: I'd have build it flat [20:19] nobby: it looks a bit like a sony like that [20:19] nobby: but - well [20:20] nobby: have to see it in real life [20:20] nobby: looks a bit like the new ipods [20:20] jann2: roundish as the lenya tabs [20:22] ragaller: will shurely convince the iX gui critics of the new lenya design - one apple has set the standard! [20:22] jann2: [20:27] ragaller: how is the editor development progressing at the university? [20:28] ragaller: if that's not internals....? [20:30] nobby: AFAIK it shall be released by the end of march [20:30] jann2: Sorry was away .... [20:30] nobby: there are still some issues with copy&paste [20:31] nobby: maybe we should announce the IRC session on the users list next time [20:31] jann2: They are still within the "Abnahmeprozess" [20:31] jann2: but some already use the new editor for production ... [20:32] nobby: CHF 4,248.00 [20:32] nobby: that's crazy [20:32] jann2: what's 4248 [20:32] nobby: who's gonna buy that? [20:32] nobby: macbook air with SSD [20:33] nobby: you get almost 3 macbooks for that [20:34] ragaller: ok - sorry; I'm more familiar with german and I'm shure you'll understand me... [20:34] Sie haben den Chat verlassen, da sie vom Server getrennt wurden. [20:36] You rejoined the room. [20:36] nobby_: sorry [20:37] jann2: Das müsste man mit Thomas absprechen .... [20:37] nobby_: my network cable got looose [20:37] nobby hat den Chatroom verlassen. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [20:37] Sie heißen jetzt nobby. [20:37] jann2: jürgen, hast du interesse den editor auszuprobieren? [20:37] ragaller: Ja, verstehe ich - drängt auch überhaupt nicht - ich denke aber, der Editor verspricht einiges für die Zukunft. [20:38] nobby: worum ging's? [20:38] nobby: gibt's irgendwo ein IRC-Log? [20:38] jann2: editor [20:38] nobby: ok [20:38] ragaller: Bin nicht sicher bezüglich irc log - wäre natürlich ein Anlass auf Englisch zurückzuwechseln [20:42] ragaller: Jann: ich werde den Editor ja sicher im Rahmen der lkg-zentrum Publikation kennenlernen, wenn alles ready ist. [20:43] jann2: Wie weit seit ihr? [20:45] ragaller: Ein Missverständnis - ich meinte, wenn ihr mit dem Einbau des Editors so weit seid, dass ihr ihn für alle uzh Publikationen anbietet - wir haben in letzter Zeit nicht ander Publikation gearbeitet [20:45] jann2: ah ok [20:46] ragaller: Andreas, welches sind die anstehenden Arbeiten / Schwierigkeiten bezüglich der neuen Doku-Publikation? [20:47] nobby: 1. does everybody agree that we want to migrate the docs to Lenya? [20:47] nobby: 2. how shall we manage the content? [20:48] nobby: svn - yes or no [20:48] nobby: backups [20:48] nobby: versioning only in svn, or also in Lenya [20:48] nobby: it's a pity that thorsten is not here [20:48] nobby: joern wanted to join too [20:50] nobby: another open issue: access control [20:50] nobby: if we allow public access, we need notification [20:51] nobby: if we don't use SVN for the content, we need notification too [20:51] nobby: IMO we shouldn't allow public access [20:52] nobby: shall we run the docs publication on the zones, or locally? [20:52] ragaller: looking at the a bit caotic situation on the zones server, public access is not a healthy thing. [20:52] nobby: if we run on the zones, it's difficult to commit the content to SVN [20:52] nobby: option a: each committer has a sandbox on the zones, copies the content there after editing and commits it [20:53] nobby: option b: each committer runs the docu pub locally and commits the content there [20:53] nobby: option c: we don't use svn for the content [20:53] nobby: IMO b is the most appealing at the moment [20:53] nobby: WDYT? [20:53] jann2: why not using svn.apache.org and make a nightly update on the zones? [20:54] nobby: ?? [20:54] nobby: updating is not the problem [20:54] nobby: committing is difficult [20:54] jann2: ok, understand ... [20:56] nobby: uh, burnt onions [20:56] nobby: rescued them in the last second [20:56] jann2: [20:56] ragaller: ui - sorry to hear that [20:56] jann2: just raw onions? [20:56] nobby: no, burnt ones [20:56] nobby: my favourite meal [20:57] ragaller: anything with it? [20:57] nobby: yes [20:57] ragaller: like pasta or so? [20:57] nobby: red thai curry [20:57] nobby: but pasta with onions is also very good [20:57] nobby: onions and cream [20:57] ragaller: wow - I'm getting hungry again... I wish you en Guete! [20:57] nobby: thanks [20:58] nobby: will be another 30 minutes till the eggplant is ready [20:58] nobby: a good curry needs patience [20:58] ragaller: You seem to be a gourmet... [21:00] nobby: yes, gourmet and gourmand [21:00] nobby: do you have any preferences (a, b, or c)? [21:00] nobby: or maybe there are better options? [21:00] nobby: assuming that you want to migrate to Lenya [21:01] nobby: IMO it would be a nice advertisement [21:01] ragaller: definitely move to lenya! [21:01] nobby: and the publication could be useful for other projects [21:01] nobby: I like the generation of the changes page [21:02] nobby: does anyone have the cell number of joern? [21:02] nobby: maybe we should send him an SMS [21:02] jann2: no i haven't [21:03] nobby: thorsten is online in skype [21:03] ragaller: sorry, no - only his fixnet and email [21:03] nobby: I pinged hiim [21:03] ragaller: great [21:04] ragaller: Is svn for the content "only" for backup purposes? [21:06] nobby: and versioning [21:06] nobby: unless Lenya, it provides unlimited versions [21:07] nobby: and we can easily migrate to a newer version [21:07] nobby: well, we'd have to migrate to a new Lenya version anyway [21:07] nobby: so this point is not important [21:08] nobby: another advantage of local installations is that you can work offline [21:08] nobby: committing from the Lenya GUI would be great, of course [21:08] ragaller: yeah but you loose locking... [21:08] nobby: maybe we can trigger the SVN commit script [21:08] nobby: yes [21:09] nobby: do we need locking? [21:09] ragaller: and the testing provided by collaborative working of committers would also be lost [21:09] nobby: OK [21:09] nobby: good point [21:10] nobby: the zones would be a better real-world testing szenario [21:11] rfrovarp hat den Chatroom betreten. [21:11] ragaller: I have a tendency towards c - but I don't fully understand the scenario yet. How is the content moved over to lenya.apache.org? [21:11] ragaller: Hi Richard! Nice to have you here. [21:11] nobby: wget + manual commit + update on minotaur [21:12] nobby: like it is now, but I'd prefer wget to the Cocoon CLI for reasons of simplicity [21:12] nobby: but I don't really care [21:12] nobby: Cocoon CLI is also fine if someone volunteers to set it up [21:12] nobby: hi Richard! [21:12] rfrovarp: Hi everybody. [21:13] nobby: nobby: if we run on the zones, it's difficult to commit the content to SVN [21:13] nobby: [20:52] nobby: option a: each committer has a sandbox on the zones, copies the content there after editing and commits it [21:13] nobby: [20:53] nobby: option b: each committer runs the docu pub locally and commits the content there [21:13] nobby: [20:53] nobby: option c: we don't use svn for the content [21:13] nobby: we talk about managing the docs with Lenya [21:13] rfrovarp: Thanks. [21:14] nobby: we seem to tend towards c [21:15] nobby: because it would provide the most realistic test scenario for Lenya [21:15] nobby: I'd use a for backup [21:16] rfrovarp: yeah I would seem to agree [21:16] ragaller: I consider the svn-versioning not so important (who ever checked out an older version of the documentation?) [21:17] rfrovarp: well, there is a certain amount of protection there against damage [21:19] ragaller: I don't get a) yet - how can the user of the docu publication access the content (via ssl / sftp on the zones server) before copying it? [21:20] ragaller: should have had a "?" after server [21:20] nobby: login with ssh [21:20] nobby: and commit there [21:20] nobby: or scp the content to your local machine [21:21] ragaller: ok - got it [21:23] rfrovarp: having to connect out to zones seems like extra unneeded work. [21:23] nobby: you'd only have to do it once in a while [21:23] nobby: the problem is that the committer is not the author [21:23] nobby: can we live with that? [21:23] nobby: that would be the advantage of option b [21:24] rfrovarp: yeah, that's why I think b is better than a [21:24] ragaller: the author would still be in the documents metadata? [21:25] nobby: hmm, isn't there a way to get both advantages? [21:31] nobby: maybe we could automatically copy the content to the editor's sandbox after each change [21:31] jann2: sorry i was away and lost the thread ... but why couldn't we work without svn on the zones server (c) -> have a script which performs a svn ci from time to time [21:31] nobby: yes, I also have such a script [21:31] nobby: the problem is that the committer is not the author [21:33] ragaller: How are the access rights to the docu given to the committers - manualy by the first admin? [21:34] nobby: we'd have to copy the content automatically to the editor's sandbox and trigger the commit there automatically [21:34] nobby: that might work [21:34] nobby: ragaller - that can be done in SVN [21:34] nobby: we could disable the access control usecases entirely [21:35] jann2: Shouldn't we use lenya's access control -> eat your own dogfoot! [21:35] nobby: yes [21:35] tscherle2 hat den Chatroom betreten. [21:35] nobby: so you mean we shouldn't disable the usecases to get a real security test? [21:35] nobby: makes sense [21:36] tscherle2: hi all [21:36] jann2: yes [21:36] ragaller: Hello Thorsten! [21:36] nobby: hi Thorsten [21:37] nobby: we need your opinion [21:37] tscherle2: tell me [21:37] tscherle2: btw is there a protocol? [21:37] nobby: nobby: if we run on the zones, it's difficult to commit the content to SVN [21:37] nobby: [20:52] nobby: option a: each committer has a sandbox on the zones, copies the content there after editing and commits it [21:37] nobby: [20:53] nobby: option b: each committer runs the docu pub locally and commits the content there [21:37] nobby: [20:53] nobby: option c: we don't use svn for the content [21:37] nobby: [20:53] [21:37] tscherle2: well c is not an option [21:38] tscherle2: since it would violate ASF policy [21:38] tscherle2: we need to keep our docu in our svn [21:39] jann2: ok but we could use c and have a script which commits changes from time to time [21:39] nobby: if we commit on the zones, it's hard to have the author as committer [21:39] nobby: nobby: we'd have to copy the content automatically to the editor's sandbox and trigger the commit there automatically [21:39] nobby: [21:34] [21:40] tscherle2: we cannot commit from zones [21:40] tscherle2: but we can export stuff [21:40] tscherle2: and commit it from our local box [21:41] jann2: Would that correspond to option b? [21:41] tscherle2: yeah where the content is coming from zones [21:42] nobby: is it an ASF policy that we can't commit from the zones? [21:42] tscherle2: meaning one would scp [21:42] tscherle2: jupp [21:42] nobby: OK [21:42] nobby: another option: provide a usecase to download the content via HTTP [21:43] ragaller: nobby: that could be a nice thing to have anyway [21:43] nobby: like "Synchronize local Lenya with remote Lenya" [21:43] nobby: Guice [21:44] ragaller: ? [21:45] nobby: Google Guice [21:46] nobby: afaik it can synchronize local apps with online repositories [21:46] nobby: that would be a nice marketing argument [21:47] nobby: but it will be quite hard to implement [21:47] nobby: because it would have to work in both directions [21:49] ragaller: Could it be setup in 2 steps, scp to local box and svn commit first and more sofisticated stuff second? [21:49] tscherle2: even without guice it is not that trivial [21:49] tscherle2: yeah [21:49] nobby: sure [21:49] tscherle2: there is as well always rsync [21:50] nobby: another option: host the docu publication on a different server [21:50] nobby: where we can commit [21:50] nobby: tcherle2, do you know why we may not commit from the zones server? [21:50] tscherle2: but it would need to be an account installed on the server [21:51] nobby: yes [21:51] tscherle2: we cannot have generic accounts [21:51] nobby: no, each committer would have a sandbox [21:51] tscherle2: that means storing passwords on the zones server [21:52] nobby: or passing them from the Lenya GUI to the automatic commit script [21:52] nobby: with SSL of course [21:52] tscherle2: the commit scripts need an user [21:52] nobby: SVN username and password would be passed from the Lenya application [21:53] nobby: but I don't have a very good feeling either [21:53] tscherle2: but we may ask on infrastructure whether we could do it [21:53] nobby: I'd prefer a nice way to get the content to my local sandbox and commit there [21:54] nobby: yes, that doesn't do any harm [21:54] tscherle2: yeah [21:54] nobby: what do the others think? [21:54] nobby: it's quite silent here [21:54] tscherle2: better safe then sorry [21:54] nobby: yes [21:55] rfrovarp: it could work. [21:55] nobby: but with concurrent editing, the problem is again that the author is always the committer [21:55] jann2: I would also prefer to edit the content on my local machine. Up to now that seems to be the best solution to me [21:56] rfrovarp: I don't seen an issue with editing on local. I'm setup to do that now. [21:56] nobby: no, there are no issues [21:56] nobby: the only drawback is that we don't have a concurrent editing test scenario [21:56] nobby: and editing collaboratively on the zones might be nice marketing [21:56] jann2: yes that's pity ... [21:57] jann2: we should eat as much of our own dogfoot as possible [21:58] nobby: I could live with the drawback that the editor is not the committer [21:59] ragaller: me too [21:59] rfrovarp: yep [21:59] nobby: we already have this situation when we migrate content from the Wiki to the Docs [22:00] nobby: IMO we could edit on the zones and once in a while someone scp's the content and commits it [22:00] tscherle2: jupp [22:00] tscherle2: the only thing is syncing [22:00] ragaller: jop [22:00] tscherle2: backwards [22:01] tscherle2: to the zones server [22:01] nobby: we'll, it would be discouraged to edit locally [22:01] nobby: but it would be no problem to update the zones server [22:01] nobby: I don't expect complex conflicts [22:02] nobby: apart from backup files, but I'd set the revision history length to 0 anyway [22:03] nobby: not nice, but IMO better than having 20 backup files for each content file in SVN [22:03] nobby: and not only these 20, but all that ever existed [22:03] nobby: because each one has a new name (timestamp) [22:04] nobby: wdyt? [22:05] nobby: could you live without a revision history in Lenya? [22:06] rfrovarp: depends on what rollingback from svn would take. [22:06] jann2: yes, we have a history in the svn. [22:06] nobby: rfrovarp - you'd have to log in at the zones server and to the svn rollback manually [22:07] nobby: or do it locally and paste the old content in the source editor [22:07] rfrovarp: yeah, I suppose the pasting of old content would work. [22:07] rfrovarp: or the manual rollback. [22:07] nobby: at least for simple operations [22:08] nobby: it's a bit more difficult for sitetree changes [22:08] rfrovarp: yeah, that would require bouncing lenya, right? [22:08] nobby: but that wouldn't be solved by the Lenya revision history either [22:08] nobby: yes [22:09] nobby: the UUIDs make it easier, though [22:09] nobby: you don't have to touch the content files if you change the sitetree [22:09] nobby: otherwise manual sitetree editing would be a nightmare with the content in SVN [22:09] ragaller: Sorry guys I have to leave - good night everyone! [22:10] nobby: good night, thanks for participating! [22:10] jann2: bye jürgen [22:10] rfrovarp: good night! [22:10] nobby: hmm, I wonder what happened to Jörn [22:10] ragaller hat den Chatroom verlassen. ("ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]") [22:11] nobby: he's not a Mac user, so it can't be a breakdown because of the Macbook Air [22:12] nobby: so, do we have a consensus? [22:13] nobby: how shall we proceed? [22:13] nobby: I'd suggest that I post a summary to lenya-dev